Dan Kelly

The Commission, Tuesday 28th June 1881

The Reverend Matthew Gibney sworn and examined.
12290. By the Commission. -What are you? - I am the Vicar-General of
the Roman Catholic Church in Western Australia.
12291. We just want the few things you know yourself at Glenrowan?
- Yes.
12292. Do you remember the taking of the Kellys at Glenrowan? - I came
there by the train, I do not know the exact hour the train arrived,
butI believe it was the first ordinary train from Melbourne. I was
staying in Kilmore the previous night and started then with the train.
12293. It would be about 12 o'clock? - Coming on twelve, I think.
12294. Did you take any particular notice of what was going on at
that time? - I had not heard previous to my getting into the train of
the Kelly capture or that, the police had found them, but when I came
to Benalla I was told there that Kelly was taken, that he was wounded,
that the others were stuck up at a place of which I could not remember
the name then - that was Glenrowan. I enquired myself if there was any
Catholic clergyman there, and I was told no; and then I made up my mind
if there was not I would stay to attend first to Kelly, and then to any
others I might be called on to.
12295. You were a witness of what occurred after 12o'clock? - I was
a good deal of the time.
12296. Where were you principally stopping? - I made my way into where
Ned Kelly was lying.I understood he was in a dying state at the time.
12297. That was in the station? - Yes.
12298. Did you notice anything that occurred at Mrs. Jones's hotel?
- I observed that the police stationed around were firing into the
hotel just as the train came up - in fact the firing seemed to be then
vigorously carried on.
12299. All round? - All round. It took me some considerable time to
get into where Ned Kelly lying. There seemed to be a great press of
people about the windows and door, curiously trying to see him but
I think it was a' Dr. Nicholson to whom I was very thankful for the
manner in which he assisted me to get to Kelly, and attended to any
call now and then when, as I thought, Kelly was in a dying condition -
he was fainting. He was always ready to attend at any call to give me
any assistance he could.
12300. Did you hear anything during the afternoon about the proceedings
of the police with reference to the Kellys? - Well, there were just some
few incidents came under my notice that I do not think they were stated,
as far as I could see, correctly. That is, I was told that Kelly's
sisters were coming on to the scene. It would be some considerable time
after I had attended to Ned Kelly.
12301. Some time in the afternoon? -Yes, and I Was then glad to find
that because I thought she could proceed to Mrs. Jones's house safely
to speak to the men. I stepped forward and asked her would she go to
her brother and tell him there was a Catholic priest here who was
anxious to come and see him,to ask him would he let me in. She said,
"Of course, I will go up and see my brother." She was excited. She
started then for the house but was stopped.
12302. By whom? -I could not say. I did not know any person on the
scene- by some police authority I suppose, so I was told. The officer
in charge of the police was off in one direction of the semi-circle
which the police formed, standing in different groups here and there
behind trees. I was told he was off in that direction, so I went on
from group of police to another to find the officer in charge, and
when I had gone to the extreme end there, I was told he was not there,
so I was directed then on to the other end, and when I name to the
last body I was told that was he -I think Mr. Sadleir; and then I sent
the girl to ask (I did not go myself) for permission for her to go up
to the house, mentioning that I advised her to go and she went and she
was told she would not be allowed to go. I was strongly inclined to go
myself prior to that, but when I had been with Ned Kelly, after I had
attended to him, I asked him did he think it would be safe for me to
go up to the house and to get this man, his brother, I think, to
surrender. He looked very steadfastly at me, seemingly reading me,
and he said, "I would not advise you to go, they will certainly shoot
you."I said,"They would not shoot me if they knew I was a priest or
a clergyman," and he said, "They will not know what you are, and
they will not take time to think." I saw that I could not justify myself in going up as long as I did not see the probability of doing any service. That alone was what kept me back during the course of the
day. I was surprised a good deal that there seemed to be no sign of
truce at any time offered; there was no signal given that the men
might see, that they might have the idea their lives would be spared
if they came out. I was rather surprised at that, and remarked it
repeatedly, but still I did not know whether it was to anyone in
authority or not, because there seemed to be an incessant feeling
of anxiety in the minds of those men that were around.
12303. Did they seem to be under any control? -I could not say that
they were guided by any orders.I could not make a statement on that
subject.
12304: Did they seem to have the appearance of being guided
by orders? - I do not think they had. I do not think really that
there was any disciplinary order guiding them, as far as I could
be a judge.
12305:In point of fact, that there was a want of generalship? - Oh,
that was evident.
12306. They seemed just to be shooting away at random? - Firing at
the house was the only thing that anyone could say there was any
uniformity about.
12307. Just firing at the house? - Yes.
12308. Did you hear any shots fired from the house after you arrived?
I repeatedly tried to ascertain for myself whether there were, and I
could not. Sometimes there would be shots fired that I could not
really say whether it would be from the house or not, but the reason
of that was that sometimes, in my position, the police were above and
beyond the house, and I could not really say then whence the sound
came.
12309. So far as you know there was no further attempt made to
communicate with them after Mrs Skillion and the sister came? - No
further attempt was made to communicate with them that I saw or heard
of, only that, until the house was set fire to.
12310. Did you Feel it.your duty to rush in to see them when
the house was fired? Well, it was at that particular time that the
crisis occurred that then buoyed me up to do what I did, when the
house was being set fire to. My feelings revolted very much from the
appearance it had, and I was wishing in my heart that it might not
take fire. That was my own feeling in the matter; and then I should
not have gone but that when the fire seemed to have taken well, just
as it seemed to break through the house, here and there, there was a
volley fired into the house and I then said to myself, " These men
have not five minutes to live. If they stop in they will be burned,
and if they come out they will be shot." That was what decided me,
and I thought then they will be very glad to get any service now -
they will be very glad to see anyone coming
to them.
12311. Did you go in at the front door? - I was then close down
to the gate at the railway crossing and I started from there direct
for the front of the house. I think I, might be about half the
distance between where I started from and the house when I was
called to. I was told afterwardl Sadleir who called to me not to go
in there without orders, without consulting him - that I should not
go there without consulting him.
12312. You were told afterwards it was Mr.Sadleir? - Yes; so
I stopped then a few moments and stepped towards him, perhaps two
or three paces, to remonstrate with him. I said something to this
effect, "I am not in the police service, Iam going to do my duty,
and there is no time to lose." So he did not interfere with me
further, and I walked on. As I was going on towards the house
there was a large number of people about. I'm not a very good judge
of numbers that way, but I thought there could not be be less than
500 or 600 people.
12313. Then they had collected from all parts of the country about?
- They were coming in from various directions.
12314. Did you see the two young men when you went in? - When Iwas
going up towards the house the excitement of the people was very
great, and they clapped hands as if I was going on a stage;
their excitement was high at the time. I went in then on what I think
was the room on the right hand side, and it was quite vacant or empty.
It was the other end of the house the fire was set to,
and then when I came inside I called out to the men that I was a
Catholic prlest, and came to offer them their life and asked them for
God's sake to speak to me. I got no answer of course, but I thought to
myself that they might be on their guard, watching to see whether I was
what I said I was. Then I found first the body of Byrne. There was a
door leading out of this room towards the door. His body was lying
where he had fallen in a straggled kind of way. He seemed to have
fallen on his back, like on his hip.
He must have died soon, because he was just in the same position as
he fell; he was still lying, and his body quite stiff.
12315. Did you see him fall? - No, he had fallen in the morning. I
heard when I came here that he was shot, and that he could not have
lived long after he fell. When I found this man's body, that part of
the house was blazing furiously just before me. I did not think that
I would go in then if I got any passage around, so 1 went into another
back room that was off the one I entered first, and there was no exit
out of that - no door - so I had to come back to the same spot again,
and the place was blazing considerably. I was afraid at the time that
I might be caught with the flame; I just blessed myself in the name of
God and rushed through. Then when I came in that passage down from the
bar towards the back of the house there was a little room to the left
hand, and I spoke again to the men inside. I got no answer, of course
and I looked in upon the floor and found the two corpses lying together.
12316. Both dead? - Both dead. The room was small.
12317. At the time you saw the two corpses lying in that room, had the
fire taken sufficient hold of the building to have destroyed those two
corpses by fire, or are you under the impression they were dead prior
to the fire? - Oh l I am certain they wore dead.
12318. But we want your own impression whether their death was caused
by the fire, suffocation any other means? - My impression is that
they certainly were not killed by the fire - were not suffocated by
the heat of the fire. I myself went in there, and stopped there
safely, and just when I came into theirpresence they were very
composed looking, both lying at full stretch, side by side, and
bags rolled up under their heads, the armour on one side of them
off. I concluded they lay in that position to let the police see
when they found them that it was not by the police they died;
that was my own conclusion.
12319. You concluded they committed suicide? - Yes, that is my own
belief.
12320. At the present time? - Yes, I took hold of the hand of the
one that was near me to see whether or not they had recently killed
themselves - whether there was life in them, and I found it was quite
lifeless. Then I looked at his eyes, and I found that his eyes showed
unmistakeable signs that he was dead for some time; and then I went
to the other to touch him. I satisfied myself that life was completely
extinct in both of them before I left, and at that time this little
room they were in the fire was just running through it. I saw that
the roof itself was sufficiently safe, that I was in no immediate
danger. It wasvery hot, but still I saw I was not in any immediate
danger of being caught.
12321. At the time that you entered the little room at the back of
the, building where the two corpses were lying, had the two men been
living, there was sufficient time for them to have escaped with their
lives from the fire? - Oh yes, there was if there had been life in
either of them. I would have had them out myself, and I was perfectly
satisfied that they would be taken out. I looked upon it that my own
purpose was realized, that I had satisfied myself that what I came to
do was over, that it was too late, and then I said I would give word
to the police of course as soon as I found how they were. I walked out
to the back of the house, that was the nearest way then and called out
to the police that the men were all dead inside.
12322. Did they rush to the building then? - There came two or three
running up very soon after. The first man, I suppose he was a
policeman, that came up, it appeared to me he was determined to have
a shot into one of them. That was just the impression I had at the
moment. '
12323. He had his revolver ready? - Yes, he had his revolver ready,
and specially so it appeared to me. I laid my hand upon his arm that
way, and said, "Do not fear; they are both dead." That was at Byrne's
body; he could not see the other two from there. So then I believe it
was she time they rushed in, and pulled out the body of Byrne. Of
course the crowd came running then quickly, and I was certain that
they would have taken out the bodies. I was perfectly satisfied they
would have done so, and there was plenty of time; but then I did not
make sufficient allowance for appearances, or of the fact that I had
advantage over the police just then. I knew the room had not been burnt
through; though burning, it was not burnt through.
12324. Then from the way in which they were lying, with a pillow of
bags under their heads, you came to that conclusion it must have been
arranged before? - That they laid it out and that they could not have
been laid in such a position except by design.
12325. Did you notice if they had any weapons in their hands?
- I did not see any, and I cannot say that I saw any sign of blood;
in fact, my impression was that they must have laid the pistol
upon their breasts and fired into their hearts; but that is only
conjecture, for I did not see the wounds about then - about the
bodies, or on the bodies.
12326. I think you said you went in at the front door, that is the
door facing the railway line? - Yes.
12327. And then you went out at the back door? - I went out the back,
after having found the three bodies.
12328. Did you come through again out of the front door? - No, I went
into the room off the first room, and thence into a room off that,
thinking I could get out that way without passing through the flames,
because that was the end of the house fired first, and the fire was
worst there, and the spirits might have caught fire, I thought; There
was a sheet of fire.
12329. About how long were you in the house altogether? - I could not
really say; perhaps I might have been from eight to ten minutes; I
think so.
12330. Would the time not seem to be longer than it really was? -It
might appear to me longer, because all that I did, when I found Byrne
was dead, was to pass on then to get the others. I went into
the back room, as I said, off the one that I entered first, thinking
to go out that. way.
12331. You could have done all that in five minutes? I daresay
I could.
12332. How far were the police from you when you came out and said
the men were dead? - There were none of them I saw nearer, I should
say, than between 20 or 80 paces.
12333. There was no effort made by them to come up till you
told them? - No, there was no man came up with me, or that I saw,
till the first man that reached me after I came out of the back,
and called out to them. He was the first man I saw come to the house.
I think there were three that. ran up after that. That was after I
came out. My great object in going, of course, was to see to get
those men time for repentance; and I would have preferred much to
have seen them executed rather than to have seen them destroyed in
that manner.
12334. Although you saw no firearms about them, you still think
they committed suicide? - From the position; I could not judge of
anything except from the position in which they were lying. They lay
so calm together, as if laid out by design.
12335. It had all the appearance of a pre-arrangement? - It had.
I saw sometimes in the press different remarks about casting censure
upon this Police Commission, that they had not given me any portion
of the reward. Now I wish to make a statement on that matter. From
the first I never intended to receive anything of that rewawd,
though I might be considered entitled to it. I never thought myself
for a moment that I would accept any portion thereof; and my reason
for that is simply this - that it is better for society at large that
we should be (the Catholic priesthood, I mean) free of any charge of
taking any money that is offered as a reward, because we can more
readily move in the matter; we can approach them with some amount of
confidence on that account. Of course I merely make the remark with
your permission, that it was my own determination; and if you had not
given me the opportunity of saying so, of course I would never make
such a remark, because it might not be understood in the way I intend
it.
12336. This is not the Commission that allocated the reward? -Indeed!
12337. That was a Board appointed for the purpose; but your object in
stopping, at Glenrowan that day was in your capacity as a Catholic
priest? - As a priest.
12388. Your duties as a priest were paramount to all other
considerations? - It Was only that that kept me there and actuated me
at all. There was another thing, I thought I might also remark. I
thought it strange that as I was the principal witness in finding
those bodies, that I had not been in any way consulted in the matter,
that I had not been referred to at all as a witness. I did not see
any reason at all why I would not be at least so far consulted in
the matter, or spoken to, to hear what I had-to say on that. Of
course I was the witness of the manner in which those bodies were
found, and the first witness.
12339. We fully intended to call you, but we did not know at first
you were in the colony? - I referred simply to the inquest.
12340.And you were on the ground at the time? - I went on to Albury.
1234I. But they could have found you? - Yes. I think I might say too,
with your permission, that in order that it may not appear strange
why I should be so far away from my own place, that my object in
visiting Victoria has been collecting for the orphan institution,
of which I am the certified manager myself in my own colony. It might
appear a strange thing for me to be away so far away from my own
duties.
12342. Did you tender any advice or suggestion to the police
officers during the day in any way? - Well, I did not find or see
any of them. I exposed myself very considerably in trying to find
one of them because in going from tree to tree if the parties had
been alive inside, as was supposed, they might have said, "He is
one making himself very busy giving general directions, going from
have picked me off; but still I was very intent on trying to have
the sister go there, seeing no one else would be safe to go, and it
was then I sought for the officer in charge.
12343. You did not find him on the scene of the fight? - He was with
the party at the opposite end.
12344. Did you notice the black trackers there? - Well, as I
was passing along in the front of the house, along by the railway
line like - I was questioning myself afterwards about that - I think
I saw some of them lift their heads and look up to me from a kind of
gulf or hole they were in. I could not say for positive now, I did
not pay any particular attention to that.
12345. You did not notice whether there was any particularly heavy
shooting from there or not? - No.
12346. Is there anything farther you wish to add? - I do not think
there is anything further. There is one thing, which is hardly
relevant to the matter. There was a report spread at the time, after
I had been attending to Ned Kelly. Of course I was a very considerable
time with him before I moved out at all, trying to prepare him for
his last, because I thought he was in a dyig state, the doctor could
not give a decided opinion as to the result. After that I came out
and heard there was a report he was cursing and swearing just soon
after I came out. I said, "My labor is lost if that is the case,"
and I made my way back and asked the policeman in charge of him to
tell me was he making use of any bad language or was he disturbed.
He said "No." parties, and said that the man was bad enough, and not
to tell lies about him, and afterwards I found out that it had been
telegraphed, but these are points that are of no importance. I forgot
to mention anything about Cherry, the man that was taken out of the
house. I was aware that he was wounded in the house almost from my
going there. Some parties met me and told me this man, a platelayer,
was shot by the fire of the police upon the house, and he was wounded,
and I knew that from their information that he could not possibly come
out, that he was inside incapable of moving himself, and yet they said
he had not died. Well, I did not find him in any of those three rooms.
I came to where the bodies of the outlaws were, and I had already
passed through the house, and it was a party that had been bailed up
with him that knew where he was, ran and took him out.

12347. From an outhouse?

- I fancy so. I believe he would have been
burned; that he is the one that would have been burned alive if I had
not come up.
l2348. You mean he was the only one whose life would have been
sacrificed by the effects of the fire? - Yes.
12349. You saw him when he was brought out? - Yes; I attended to him
as well as I could, administered the sacrament of my own church to
him
as far as I could.
12350. He made some remarks? - Not to me. He seemed to be
conscious, but not able to speak.
12351. You said you went in at the front, and not at the back; did
you not afterwards appear at the front door, and hold up your hands
in this manner--[explaining by gesture]? - No; it was at the back.
When I was going in I held up my bands, and kept my bands in such
a position going into the house, that the parties observing me might
perhaps be justified in saying that I came back, from the fact from
the fact that I turned back from the room I first entered, because
I was standing between the people and the blaze, and every movement
of mine, I believe, they could see with the strong light that was
beyond me. They might, in the excitement of the time, think I came
out. I did not come out of the house at the front.
12352. Did you appear at the door? - No.
12353. What intimation had the police from the front that it was all
over, that caused them to go up to the house? - When I saw the others
running to the other side, I suppose I called out to the police. They
were on my right side as I went up. After that I came out, I turned to
them and called out. I dare say they were watching anxiously, and the
first of that party then came running, and they all rushed after. I did
not come outside the house until I came out of the back.
The witness withdrew.